'Fighting in a new dimension': Khartiia colonel reveals how underground operation near Kupiansk unfolded

23 October, 11:48 AM

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There are many complex issues involved in being underground inside gas pipes, and in digging passages and tunnels – Lysiuk on Operation Veles (Photo: Video screenshot/Khartiia Corps/YouTube)

— The Khartiia Corps has released details of its Operation Veles, which demonstrates an entirely new dimension of warfare: underground combat using pipelines. Recently, we've seen a series of successful operations. It started with the Air Assault Forces' grouping in the Oleksandrivka sector, followed by Troika in the Lyman sector. Now you've released information about Operation Veles. I'd like you to explain in more detail how you came up with the idea for this underground operation, which gas pipeline was involved and what advantages it gave the enemy. We'd like to hear some inside information.

— As for the new dimension of warfare that the 2nd Khartiia Corps has encountered firsthand, there are traditionally five domains: air, land, sea, space and cyberspace. But Khartiia is already fighting in a new domain: underground.

We've been talking about this and developing this capability for a long time, although we kept it secret for a certain period because there was no need to reveal too many details.

But now warfare is increasingly moving underground, and everyone needs to understand that. Everyone needs to get involved and develop this area of warfare.

In fact, the idea of going underground and moving through pipelines came from the Russians. We learned it from them back during the fighting around Sudzha.

After that, the corps commander began studying the locations of pipelines within the gas distribution network in greater detail.

For a long time, we couldn't understand how the enemy was getting behind our positions in Kupiansk or infiltrating the city. Eventually, we realized there was a gas pipeline there.

The corps commander's idea was that we needed to beat the Russians at their own game.

We carefully studied what had worked for the Russians, what they were doing, how they moved and how they organized communications.

We devoted as much expertise as possible to the effort, found specialists with more extensive knowledge in this field, including miners and people experienced in underground construction, and began developing this capability more than six months ago.

That's why we can now speak about it publicly. We've achieved some success because the gas pipeline was the main route the Russians used to infiltrate Kupiansk.

During this period, we captured more than 30 enemy soldiers and killed more than 100 others underground, inside the pipelines and tunnels.

This is extraordinarily difficult, painstaking work that our guys carry out every day.

As they say, these are people who weren't born for war, let alone for operating inside pipelines, in confined spaces where gas can accumulate and block passages.

There are numerous challenges associated with moving and remaining underground, inside gas pipelines, passing through access points, excavating passages and tunnels, and so on.

— I fully understand that we're talking about moving our troops through pipelines and cutting off enemy forces. But in Khartiia's footage, we also saw what looked like excavation work, with something being cut or welded. So I'm trying to understand whether you were using existing infrastructure. Khartiia's press announcement said you had learned to use underground infrastructure to approach the enemy's flanks and rear. Does that mean you also developed additional underground routes by digging new tunnels, or did you rely exclusively on existing infrastructure?

— No, look, the existing infrastructure is simply a gas pipeline with a diameter ranging from 70 to 120 centimeters.

Everything else has to be built and equipped. You essentially have to construct entire underground settlements and excavate passages.

For example, there may be two pipelines running parallel to each other, and we move through one or the other.

We had to dig tunnels and passages between and beneath the pipelines, install ventilation so people could breathe and survive underground, establish logistics hubs, set up communications, provide medical support, organize food supplies and create basic living conditions.

You have to understand that people need to live down there continuously, almost never coming to the surface, or with all those support facilities located somewhere 10 to 15 kilometers away.

That's why everything has to be as automated and properly equipped as possible to make life underground at least somewhat manageable.

— By the way, why Veles?

— Veles is the god of the underworld in Slavic mythology, associated with everything underground and secret. There were three realms. Yav, if I'm not mistaken, was the earthly world, Nav was the higher spiritual world, and Veles was the patron and god of the entire underground realm.

We now have an underground realm of our own, which is why we called the operation Veles.

— Essentially, we're now at the same stage we were about a year and a half ago with unmanned ground vehicles (UGVs), when everyone was saying we needed to work with them, that they had enormous potential and that this potential needed further development. Today, it's impossible to imagine the battlefield without UGVs. The same applies now: We're talking about the potential of underground warfare. Can we expect that, in perhaps a year, everyone on the front line will not only be talking about it but actually using it, to the point where it becomes indispensable?

— I'm 100% certain of that. We've also been telling everyone about this for more than six months, trying to get the message across that warfare will definitely move underground.

Then, for a while, we stopped talking about it and simply focused on doing our job.

That's why we're now demonstrating the results once again.

And I'm convinced that, given how heavily the skies are saturated with drones, including the enemy's Rubikon units, warfare is steadily moving underground.

I'm certain that everyone will eventually move entirely underground.

— How exactly might this underground warfare unfold? Can there be small-arms combat underground? Will drones be able to operate there? I've been asking myself these questions, but I don't have the answers. What might underground warfare actually look like?

— Exactly. We've already gone through all of this, and we have answers to all these questions.

We have drones operating underground, including certain FPV drones, because not all of them can function in those conditions, particularly when water or gasoline is present.

We've already encountered all these challenges.

For example, pipelines can become flooded, so you need specific UGVs that can withstand water and are completely watertight.

And that's not even mentioning excavation machinery.

The same applies to weapons. Of course, small-arms engagements take place underground.

We've gained extensive experience in this area, which is why we've already captured enemy soldiers and eliminated others inside the pipelines.

So underground warfare is already happening, and we know how to conduct it.

— Are you currently working to systematize this experience and develop doctrinal documents for this type of warfare? Or has the command not yet assigned such a task? We saw in the footage that Mykhailo Drapatyi, who is now commander in chief, participated in briefings and previously commanded this sector of the front. As we know, he formerly commanded the Joint Forces Grouping, whose area of responsibility included Kupiansk. Has the command requested that this experience be incorporated into military doctrine?

— Certain institutions should be working on this, but Khartiia constantly documents all its processes, while training is conducted on an ongoing basis.

That's why we document everything, try to expand the use of these capabilities and continuously improve them. So work is underway in this area as well.

At the same time, we're working on patenting machinery, UGVs designed for underground operations, including those already in use, and excavation equipment.

— Could you tell us more about some of the specific challenges? You mentioned gas pockets, if I'm not mistaken. We're talking about existing infrastructure, such as major gas pipelines and similar facilities. But operating underground must create additional technological challenges, doesn't it?

— We've already done extensive work in this area. We've been dealing with all these issues for more than six months.

It really is extremely difficult work.

First, how do you locate a pipeline underground? You have to excavate an opening, for example, and inspect the area to determine where you are.

Then there's the challenge of navigation and locating a neighboring pipeline.

After that, how do you construct a tunnel from one pipeline to another?

For example, the distance between them might be about 30 meters, and excavating that tunnel takes a certain amount of time.

Where do you put all the excavated soil? How many bags of soil will you produce from each square meter of tunnel excavation?

— As far as I know, disposing of excavated soil is one of the biggest challenges in underground warfare. The main issue isn't digging itself but figuring out where to put all the earth that's been removed.

— Exactly. And there are many such questions.

Where do you dispose of the soil? How do you breathe underground? How do you enter the pipelines? How do you excavate passages? How do you get through sections that are blocked, sealed off by valves or still contain some gasoline, for example?

Then there are oxygen masks, cylinders, air pumps, ventilation openings and communications, which are a separate challenge inside pipelines.

All of this requires an enormous amount of infrastructure, and every single issue demands the utmost attention.

I simply can't explain everything in detail right now, but all of these matters have already been studied, solutions have been developed, and the procedures have been documented.

We know what we're talking about and how to operate in these conditions.

When people say that we weren't born for this or that we don't know how to do it, I want to tell you something: The people working inside these pipelines are ordinary soldiers, ordinary Khartiia personnel who have simply undergone training.

At our training camp, we built mock-ups of pipelines and underground infrastructure to practice staying underground, navigating and adapting to confined spaces.

We've already worked through a great many of these challenges, and we know how to handle them.

— In the video presenting the operation, we saw the corps commander himself. We saw you at headquarters, Volodymyr, but as I understand it, the corps commander, Brig. Gen. Obolienskyi, was inside the pipeline alongside the soldiers. Is that correct? Did the corps commander personally take part in these operations?

— That's correct. The corps commander was there, and so was I, as the first deputy commander.

We all have a certain amount of experience, but operating underground, being inside a pipeline and understanding the conditions are things you have to experience firsthand.

These are entirely new challenges.

That's why the corps commander, Brig. Gen. Obolienskyi, was also there inside the pipeline, along with the rest of the command staff.

We experienced firsthand what it's like to move around down there, live there, survive in those conditions and deal with everything else involved.

— Is the risk justified? Does the command really need to go down there personally? Or do you mean that, to understand this new dimension of warfare and plan future operations, essentially every commander needs to experience it firsthand?

— Exactly, and I'm absolutely convinced of that. This is also the corps commander's position.

The leadership must understand everything that happens within our corps. They need to know what it's like to be in a trench and what it's like to be underground.

That's why every commander needs to experience these conditions firsthand and understand what this new dimension of warfare is really like, to get a taste of it, so to speak.

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