Why Ukraine’s Defense Intelligence needs ‘good Russians’ — interview

22 August 2023, 12:37 AM

Exclusive

NV: Our colleagues at TSN frightened half of the country recently by reporting that the Russians have “adopted” a decision to sabotage the Zaporizhzhya NPP. They cited an anonymous Russian Telegram channel. Was this an enemy psyop?

Yusov: Since there was more than one message, and not only from a single Russian Telegram channel, but several other information events, as we saw equipment moving around the plant, it seems that this should indicate something. That said, the Russians have been on the territory of the ZNPP for a long time and, accordingly, equipment has been moving there for a long time. Moreover, other communication channels were used to disseminate information. So, everything points to the conduct of a hostile Russian psyop, which could have several goals at once.

This is really a distraction from the failures of the Russians at the front and from the progress, the successes of the Ukrainian defense forces, since this coincides with the official news that the Ukrainians are making progress, moving forward with the liberation of their own territories. Of course, sowing panic. And in the end, we are approaching significant dates, like (Ukraine’s) Independence Day (on Aug. 24).

Therefore, I offer special thanks to all critically thinking citizens who do not give in to panic and to all responsible media outlets that do not distribute these sorts of fake news. I also appeal to everyone to do things that in the end do not harm, but rather strengthen our national security and defense capability.

NV: If we’re going to look at things theoretically, how are these sorts of decisions made by the Russian leadership? Is it done on Putin's command? And how long does it take between a decision being made and being implemented?

Yusov: An absolutely reasonable question, but first of all, let's note that there was a planted story, and for a second day now we have been discussing the actions of Russian propaganda and enemy psyops. In principle, this is already a sign of a fairly successful operation, as we have been forced to refute things if the media ask for comment on messages in one of the many, many Russian Telegram channels. And there are hundreds of narratives, news items, fakes, and planted stories in a day. But some land louder. And of course, it is especially surprising when certain Ukrainian outlets pick up these things so easily.

But in the end, this is what psyops rely on. This, in fact, is inorganic distribution, which is supposed to scare people and capture attention, and thereby make things happen on their own. No need to involve agents or agents of influence, it rushes on its own. Regarding how this actually happens, of course, it is difficult to imagine that a person like Putin is giving the order for a provocation on the territory of the Zaporizhzhya [nuclear power] plant, and there is another person in this office who immediately reports this with a controlled leak of information to his sources.

And these reports appear in the public domain. Since the circle of people involved in making such decisions is extremely limited, this would mean that an hour after the publication of this information, there should have been some high-profile arrests or high-profile accidents. And of course, such things are first prepared, as one of many contingencies, and then the order is given at the last moment. But given the scale of the objects we are talking about and the scale of the threats, the ultimate responsibility, of course, lies with the Russia’s top military-political leadership.

But regarding yesterday's planted story, Ukrainian Defense Forces, civil society, and the media sector have quite successfully analyzed it, refuted it, and are moving on. This does not mean that there are no threats from the Russians at the ZNPP or other facilities. But this means that these threats have not changed compared to the day before. And in parallel, in addition to the war at the front, we continue to have a hybrid information war to which the enemy is allocating colossal resources.

NV: Regarding the accidental deaths you mentioned. Recently, in a single day, two generals died mysteriously in Russia. What would you attribute this to?

Yusov: I can say that the 50-year-old general, who was a former Defense Minister, was not complaining about his health. And for his entourage, what happened was a surprise. And of course, we cannot say 100% right now, as there will be more information later, but the elimination of opponents in internal political struggles in dictatorial regimes, and in particular in Russia, is a common thing. There is nothing surprising here, since the dictatorship must demonstrate unity. Since the times of Stalin, very rarely anyone has been fired with a fanfare, but more often people are instead hounded, while some are simply admitted to a hospital or a clinic, never to leave alive.

Of course, in some cases it is necessary to accuse someone of treason or rebellion, but even in these moments we see that the final outcomes can be different. These recent incidents are happening at a level where people have access to colossal resources, to unlimited resources for medical support which are inaccessible to ordinary Russians, and even to non-ordinary Russians. Any such news about an accidental death seems at least strange.

NV: There have been a lot of explosions in Russia lately. What do you know about the incident in Makhachkala, where a gas station exploded?

Yusov: There are reports about this, but it is difficult to say one hundred percent now, because for this you need to have direct access and to study the situation on site. But the nature of the damage, the scale of the explosion, and the scale of the consequences indicate that we are hardly talking about an everyday story. Yes, this could be due, among other things, to the disabling of some kind of missile weapons, or another equivalent, if we are talking about explosive force using the aggressor's equipment and means of destruction.

This is most likely an accident, or unintentional damage, but it resulted in tragic consequences for the inhabitants of that territory. But again, the consequences are connected with the criminal action of their regime. And they are directly connected in one way or another directly with the invasion of Ukraine as well. This is a reason for everyone, both the inhabitants of that republic and all the peoples of the so-called Russian Federation, to think about whether it is necessary to continue being silent, or whether it is necessary to take action to free themselves from this dictatorship and this regime.

NV: Regarding Russian POWs, can you say what proportion of them are surrendering of their own accord?

Yusov: Quite a significant proportion, but there are fewer of them than there are of those captured. And there are many logical explanations for this. Particularly the “barrier troops,” or anti-retreat forces. Including the Kadyrovites, and not only them. And it's not a figure of speech. Even when we say this and imagine it, it is difficult to understand in the modern world, in modern conditions, that soldiers can shoot their own people in the back, throw their own people into pits, torture, and mock them. All of this is happening inside the so-called army of the Russian Federation. Invaders, murderers, and rapists who do not spare their own.

Often, they are afraid for the families they left behind, and often they are simply in a certain state of prostration. And in order to decide on some kind of collective action, one must still have the experience of self-organization. The Russians don't have it. Over the past decades, in fact, everything that concerned the struggle for freedom was actively expunged in Russia. But nevertheless, they surrender, and in significant numbers. In addition to surrendering, Russians choose other ways to avoid fighting: desertion, and these cases are not isolated.

Especially along the front line, there are cases when dozens of people disappear from the front line at once, and they are then searched for both in the temporarily occupied territories and on the territory of Russia itself, both with weapons and without. There are people who wound themselves, and there is bribery. That is, in general, the indication we get from POWs. But at the same time, regardless of whether a person surrendered on their own or was captured, Ukraine, as a democratic, legitimate European state, ensures the implementation of the Geneva Conventions and the care for Russian POWs in accordance with international law. No matter how much we may hate them, we still are not Russians.

NV: I have also saw an announcement on the page of the HUR’s I Want to Live project [exchanging POWs for repressed Russian political prisoners]. People in the comments are asking, ‘have we already brought home all of our prisoners so that we can trade for these Russians?’ What is this project?

Yusov: An emotionally-charged but fair question. And it should be noted right away that, of course, we are not talking about the exchange of Russian prisoners of war for Russian opposition activists or people who were repressed by the Putin regime for anti-war activities or support for Ukraine. But nevertheless, in Russia there are people who ended up behind bars and received draconian sentences precisely because of their struggle against their regime, because of their anti-war beliefs and their support for Ukraine. And of course, Ukraine, as a responsible and democratic state, will provide the necessary assistance to free them.

When we talk about a tool like prisoner exchanges, this is a complex and often a non-public process. We already have certain Russian citizens in Ukraine who are not serving in the Russian military, but nevertheless have been seen committing crimes against our state, and there is a share of collaborators who directly worked for the enemy and are thus traitors. Nevertheless, many of these Russian collaborators are now no longer needed in Russia. Ukraine demonstrates a different example.

At the same time, we have a huge task and difficult work to return our prisoners of war and illegally detained civilians from Russian captivity. This work is underway, and has already brought many results during active hostilities, which, in principle, is not provided for by the Geneva Conventions. Nevertheless, Ukraine certainly does not abandon its own. But in this situation, we are showing that the task is to save other people who condemn Putin's war of aggression and take an anti-Russian and pro-Ukrainian, anti-war stance.

NV: That is, are we talking about the exchange of Russians for Russians or not?

Yusov: We are talking about this kind exchange, in particular, but not only that. Because the forms of assistance there can be different. But we are not talking about the exchange of prisoners of war for Russians.

 NV: And why should HUR deal with them? What for? How are they useful to us?

Yusov: We are talking about the coordinating headquarters for the treatment of prisoners of war, which includes members of the entire security and defense sector. I Want to Live is a state project of this coordinating headquarters. What are we doing this for? We are showing that we are different. But in addition, there are moments that we cannot publicly discuss, but which will help to solve other problems and ultimately help to release both our citizens and our defenders.

NV: There are stories of how Russian prisoners of war are being kept in very humane conditions, sometimes even better than they had at home in Russia. Does this somehow affect them later? Does it affect their worldview and understanding of what is happening?

Yusov: Frankly, only in some cases. And yes, there are people who realize what is really happening, and there are people who even demonstrate sincere repentance and may cry, who discover new pages of history and geopolitical reality for themselves. But ultimately, these are still attempts to survive, survive and get back to their usual lives. Ukraine really demonstrates its commitment to international norms, allowing access for the International Committee of the Red Cross and UN officials, with anyone being able to see how POWs live, how they eat, their medical care, exercise grounds and so on.

And we are dealing with a Russian genocide against Ukrainians. There is still total support among Russians for their war against Ukrainians. And there is no mass repentance, resistance, or desire to fight the Putin regime. However, this does not relieve us of our obligations under international law and the Geneva Conventions. In particular, realizing that a significant number of our prisoners are still in enemy hands, we need to continue our work – which is sometimes very difficult and non-obvious – in various ways and through various initiatives, which will allow us to return all of our people as soon as possible.

NV: What can be said about the mass arsons of military enlistment offices across Russia? The perpetrators say they receive phone calls compelling them to do so.

Yusov: This is generally an insulting statement on the part of the Russian special services. They say some nonsense, are calling people names and accusing their citizens of mental inferiority. They say that some people are calling, introducing themselves as the FSB and forcing them to set fire to military enlistment offices, and they go and set them on fire. Who are we talking about then? Where is their critical thinking? Where is the authority of the state and trust in its institutions? No, this is a matter of mass resistance.

Since peaceful protest is impossible in the so-called Russian Federation, and the constitution does not work, all those who were ready for mass democratic actions are either in prison, or have gone abroad, or have been physically liquidated, then these forms of protest remain, and out of despair, people are going to set fire to the enlistment offices, which are now not a symbol of the defense of their homeland, but of sending their relatives to a criminal war of aggression against Ukraine.

NV: I want to ask you about the Kerch bridge. What condition is it in now? What about the logistics of the invaders on the peninsula, given the whole situation with bridges, not only with Kerch, but also with Chonhar?

Yusov: Enemy logistics on the Crimean Peninsula have slowed down. This is good news. Nevertheless, Crimea remains a logistical hub for the transfer of enemy forces, assets, equipment, and people to the temporarily occupied territories of southern Ukraine. This means that various kinds of incidents and explosions will continue until their complete expulsion. As for the Kerch bridge, from the moment of its design and construction, it was extremely risky and dangerous, and contained a number of shortcomings.

There was unsustainable technology and unsustainable deadlines. And initially it was dangerous to use. Of course, after recent events, no matter how they restore and patch holes, its stability is decreasing further. And this means that it is simply dangerous to use it. And if the enemy does not spare his military, which he is deploying along this path, then civilian Russians must understand that using the Crimean bridge, as they call this illegal structure, is simply dangerous to their health.

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