Ukrainian officer on withdrawal from Avdiivka – interview

NV: [Let’s talk] about what happened and continues around Avdiivka. The news that the 3rd Assault Brigade was joining the Ukrainian units holding the town appeared shortly before our command decided to withdraw. Did the 3rd Brigade know that Avdiivka would be abandoned?

Zhorin: Of course, no one knew about it at first. You must understand that the 3rd Brigade got to Avdiivka during the recovery process. The brigade was undergoing reconstruction, with personnel and equipment being replenished. This process wasn’t completed, but we received an order to advance to Avdiivka to stabilize the situation there.

As soon as we arrived there, it was already clear and obvious that the forces, to put it mildly, weren’t equal at all and the defense of the town would be a very difficult and unrealistic task.

We understood from the very first days that the Russians had deployed a huge number of troops against us, including several brigades of the Russian armed forces. It’s very important that when we talk about the Russian brigades, they are fully staffed and equipped. If it’s indicated that a brigade has 70 tanks, they really have them. If it’s indicated they have 150 infantry fighting vehicles, they really have them. Several such brigades were deployed to advance in Avdiivka, in low-density residential areas. These are the 35th, 55th, 74th, 15th, 21st, 31st, and 114th brigades, as well as GRU [Russian military intelligence] and SOF [Special Operations Forces] units. It’s easy to calculate and understand that the forces, to put it mildly, were disproportionate.

Therefore, we managed to enter the town as a unit and start the process of causing maximum damage and attritting enemy forces, because these forces, which the enemy had accumulated and used to advance in Avdiivka, would be enough to take not only Avdiivka but several other settlements.

So, the 3rd Assault Brigade spent several days working on the maximum destruction of enemy personnel and equipment in Avdiivka. According to our calculations, it’s about 1,500 killed and at least 3,500 wounded, as well as at least 20 destroyed armored vehicles.

Moreover, you must understand that all this took place in low-density residential areas, in extremely hellish and very difficult battles, where engagement distances were very short. Absolutely all the battles took place at a short distance. Our infantry hit almost all the equipment with hand-held grenade launchers, while the enemy was destroyed in close-quarters firefights. This was a real challenge. Despite the fact that modern war is about technology and everything else like that, this was an exceptionally heroic work of our infantry.

After that, there was an order to regroup forces, so we began to plan and regroup our units from Avdiivka to the lines we determined, together with other units that were deployed in the town. Currently, we continue to carry out tasks near Avdiivka, at the lines we have determined.

NV: When did it become clear that it was impossible to hold Avdiivka?

Zhorin: It’s hard for me to comment or discuss high-level decisions. For me, this is an absolutely logical decision. It was clear even before that. It would have to be done in any case, otherwise a terrible tragedy would have happened there.

For many civilians, it probably sounds and looks like regrouping, withdrawing [troops] means they stopped, left, or settled somewhere else. But in fact, this is one of the most difficult maneuvers in war – a pullout. This is when, during active fighting, you have to plan the gradual withdrawal of your forces to other lines, while preventing panic and chaos, not losing equipment and personnel, keeping your units intact, and preventing a chase as it can also have catastrophic consequences.

We managed to execute this extremely difficult maneuver. We even managed to help some other units regroup.

When was it clear? For me personally, it was clear a few days prior. But we did it exactly when there was an order to do so.

NV: Everyone is talking about guided bombs, which the Russian air force dropped en masse on Avdiivka. Some reports spoke of over 100 such bombs dropped on the town in one day.

Zhorin: On average, 60-80 such bombs were dropped on us per day.

NV: How could we counter Russian aviation?

Zhorin: Of course, it would have been much easier with fighter jets that could fight Russian aircraft. Of course, it would have been easier with additional air defenses deployed there.

But once again I would like to remind you of the disproportion of forces that the Russians deployed in Avdiivka this time. We withdrew from [the town of] Bakhmut not so long ago. I can say that fighting in Bakhmut was much easier compared to what happened in Avdiivka as they [Russians] used an insane amount of infantry, equipment, and ammunition. We couldn’t hold [the town] with the units we had.

NV: According to official information, the Russians lost more than 47,000 personnel, 364 tanks, 748 infantry fighting vehicles, 248 artillery systems, and five aircraft in the battle. In fact, four enemy warplanes were shot down in the last two days. How did we now manage to shoot down planes if we have already left Avdiivka?

Zhorin: We manage to do this using simpler systems and due to the mistakes of the Russian military. But, of course, today the world has more modern solutions to fight aircraft. If we had them, it would have been a little easier to fight.

As for enemy losses, the 74th, 55th and 114th Russian brigades suffered the greatest losses directly from our brigade. These are the ones we hit the most, [inflicting] significant losses.

NV: How can we assess the Russians’ ability to continue advancing?

Zhorin: I think the enemy still has enough strength to try to advance. Both we and other units have been assigned the defense lines and combat tasks around Avdiivka. We realize that there are enough [enemy] forces in the town itself [for them] to try to advance further. I think the enemy will do exactly that.

NV: Is it possible to assess the loss of Avdiivka from a tactical point of view? Our defenders have held this fortified area since 2014. This is a suburb of occupied Donetsk City. What does this loss mean?

Zhorin: There is a very thin line here. And I would very much like the military leadership to always pay attention not only to the loss of territory as a piece of land, but also its proportionality with possible losses among the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

The thing is that sometimes you have to grit your teeth and fight if you have the chance. But sometimes you have to make the right decision and save your personnel.

I consider what happened in Avdiivka to be exactly such a move and an example of a correct and balanced decision, when the units we saved would later be able to liberate Avdiivka and any other settlements.

NV: U.S. President Joe Biden said that Russian invaders had managed to capture Avdiivka because the Ukrainian military lacked ammunition. Moreover, he blamed the U.S. Congress for this. How fair is Biden’s opinion?

Zhorin: The loss of Avdiivka, like any other settlement, cannot have one specific reason. It’s always a set of factors, both explained by the enemy’s actions and ours. Ammunition is definitely one of the most important points. And if you ask whether we had enough ammunition, [the answer is] no. It wasn’t enough to cause damage more effectively to the enemy or maintain defense. If there were more of it, and everything else remained the same, most likely, we would have gained more time there.

It can never depend on just one aspect. That is, it doesn’t depend only on ammunition. Or, for example, it doesn’t depend only on the lack of aircraft that could destroy Russian planes. This is a set of issues, which certainly includes ammunition. They play an important role.

Did we have enough of them? No. We needed more.

NV: You said our enemy still has the resources to advance. Where should we expect them?

Zhorin: The thing is that the situation at the front is now very difficult not only in the Avdiivka area. It’s difficult here as there are still enough forces left in the town to try to advance. How long they will last is another question. How many of them we’ll destroy in the town, how many of them will survive...

But we must realize and understand that we must prepare for extremely difficult battles. The Russians have been preparing for a long time. They’ve prepared reserves, forces, equipment, and manpower. Now it’s time for them to put it all into action on the battlefield.

I think we may soon have a difficult situation not only in the Avdiivka area, but also in the south, as well as we have a great threat in the north—in Kharkiv Oblast and around Kupiansk.